Why should Jim Balsillie be allowed to bring another NHL team to Southern Ontario?

[sholi2000]

If the precedent is set that owners can move teams anywhere without approval or consent from the league (which is what Balsille is trying to do) - what if the eventual buyer for the Habs decides he'd rather be in KC?

Then I'd be a KC fan with a new jersey!

Hey James, have we written your paper yet, or are we all out to lunch? haha!

 

[goldendogs11]

Bettman would rather see Coyotes back in Winnipeg

Link

Interested on what others think, I for one just want to see another team in Canada, don't care where

Sarah

 

[ctbj]

Interesting, I would agree with you leaffan if what he was trying to do was unrealistic, but cmon we all know that another team in ontario is not going to do any harm to the NHL, buffalo will survive etc. Bottom line he is overspending for a good young team in a market that has proven that as a community they are not willing to do what it takes to keep them there, I also think that there in no reason for 2 teams in florida, and there is plenty of room for a 3rd team in Ontario, and the NY market is too oversaturated.

 

[leafschik1967]

Interesting, I would agree with you leaffan if what he was trying to do was unrealistic, but cmon we all know that another team in ontario is not going to do any harm to the NHL, buffalo will survive etc. Bottom line he is overspending for a good young team in a market that has proven that as a community they are not willing to do what it takes to keep them there, I also think that there in no reason for 2 teams in florida, and there is plenty of room for a 3rd team in Ontario, and the NY market is too oversaturated.

Its not about him trying to do something unrealistic - its about him not wanting to play by the same rules as other NHL owners. And if he sets a precendent of being able to buy and move a team without NHL approval - future moves won't have to be 'good' for the league. It will just be about an owner finding a willing seller and a willing market.

Looking at the big picture - Balsille's campaign to 'make it seven' could just as easily result in Canadian teams leaving the country.

 

[ctbj]

Hate to offend American HI members but your members are a very small minority in your country, and would rather have an all canadian league than another NHL team in another crap american market, It really sucks in my opinion that all the young talent are in crappy markets ex.. Rick Nash, Steve Mason, John Taveres, if Rick Nash played for the Leafs could you imagine?

 

[Reddrgn88]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Im literally crying due to laughing from reading the article posted on the other thread regarding the "RALLY" the Phoenix fans had. A whole 100 people showed up.....HAHAHAHAHA Oh still laughing/crying...I think I could phone my neighbors and get that kind of support still for the Jets. WE HAD 100,000!!! WOW that should end any arguments from here on in from anyone regarding the love of the team in Phoenix.

 

[suitman19]

Hate to offend American HI members but your members are a very small minority in your country, and would rather have an all canadian league than another NHL team in another crap american market, It really sucks in my opinion that all the young talent are in crappy markets ex.. Rick Nash, Steve Mason, John Taveres, if Rick Nash played for the Leafs could you imagine?

So - let me ask a question about your all-Canadian league.......

Are you only going to allow Canadian players????
Or when the NHL shrinks to 12 teams and with the amazing amount of world class players from countries other than Canada - are you then going to be un-happy with your team that has only 8 or maybe 10 of your countrymen on it????

I have stated this until I am blue in the face.
This has nothing at all to do with me being American, Canadian or from mars.

If you allow one - yep just one - rogue owner to do as he pleases....
then you lose the ability to prevent the same occurrences in the future.
STOP looking at this situation as a Canadian - and look at it as a fan of the game. There are plenty of people with as much and more cash than he has - and do you want them to be able to pick up and move the Oilers or the Habs or any other team in your country for no reason at all????

If you allow the Coyotes to be moved to an area as the new owner sees fit, would you also feel the same way if in two years something happened to RIM that he wanted to then move them again and the NHL could not prevent it???? All this talk of Canadian vs American misses the mark - and that is EXACTLY what Mr Balsillie wants from you. He is playing on your patriotism and love of the game - as HIS EGO draws him to be bigger than the game and the league. And he is winning - as shown by the comments that draw away from what he is actually trying to do - and you guys center on the fact that you may be getting a new team to your area.

The tune 3 Blind Mice comes to mind.
You still are failing to see the real issue at hand.

Give it up Trish - the masses are too concerned about a team in Canada to see the real problem with the way Mr Balsillie does business.

bruce

 

[Triple B]

I just want to be there the shine rubs off of this new team (when the team stops being a fad) and the people from outside of Hamilton stop coming out. I'll stick to my guns in saying that putting a team in Hamilton is a STUPID idea. The majority of the people in Hamilton (a city with a CRAP economy) have better things to do with their money.

Hamilton is an AHL city and even that is building that place up to be more than it is.

I also agree with Trish. Balsillie is going about this the wrong way. He's going to alienate himself AND his new team (should he gain approval from the courts).

Why should Balsillie get an NHL team? So he can move it to Hamilton on the cheap and then move it to Vaughan when he realizes that people in Hamilton would rather eat than pay to watch millionaires play hockey.

 

[fly4apuckguy]

Give it up Trish - the masses are too concerned about a team in Canada to see the real problem with the way Mr Balsillie does business.

bruce

I see the problem with what he is doing. He's not playing by the rules, and I also see Trish's point about how it would open up some scary possibilites.

However, the main reason for this being a great move lies in your own response, Bruce...

"...the masses..."

ctbj is even more blunt than I have been on this issue, but I see his point. The NHL, in reality, needs Canada more than we need it. Pro hockey could exist here in some form if there were only Canadians playing it, running it, and attending it. Would it be a better product than what we have now? Possibly not. But...don't kid yourself into thinking the game would somehow disappear, though. In fact, maybe even more people would be interested in the pro gamer in places like Kamloops, BC...or Hamilton, ON if they had their own teams to cheer for.

We do not fear losing hockey.

We demand AT LEAST equal attention from the NHL for our MASS loyalty and love of the game. Ballsilie is demanding it, too. That's why he is becoming a folk hero in this country right now.

 

[Jester240]

I dont see how cutting into the #1 valued teams money base can be considered good for the league. I understand that the arena would sell out and that there initially be alot of merchandise sold. But soon the merchandise would level out and your hurting TML sales cause not many fans close together buy the opposing teams stuff.

Also if there is really so much money to be made for by all the owners, except the Leafs, wouldnt there be a push for this already? I am sure every time a team is in trouble the NHL looks at the cost and profit of moving a team.

 

[fly4apuckguy]

I dont see how cutting into the #1 valued teams money base can be considered good for the league. I understand that the arena would sell out and that there initially be alot of merchandise sold. But soon the merchandise would level out and your hurting TML sales cause not many fans close together buy the opposing teams stuff.

New York Yankees, New York Mets.

I would say NYI and NYR, but in Canada, the baseball comparison is probably a better one.

 

[brado8236]

New York Yankees, New York Mets.

I would say NYI and NYR, but in Canada, the baseball comparison is probably a better one.

From a sports perspective, you're spot on with the Yankees/Mets comparison. However, from a monetary standpoint...well, call me when Southern Ontario approaches New York metro's population. There's more than enough money to go around in New York to support two teams (even three) in every major sport and make them amongst the richest in their respective leagues.

Toronto by itself has the Leafs (certainly amongst, if not the richest NHL franchise), the Raptors (top 1/3 of NBA franchises) and the Blue Jays (amongst the poorest MLB franchises). Southern Ontario supports those franchises admirably, but it's nowhere near the support given by the New York area.

A better baseball example is the most appropriate one - the Expos moving to the Washington D.C. area. The team went from a metro area with about 3.8 million people to one with around 9 million people that already supported a successful franchise (the Baltimore Orioles). MLB argued there would be enough support to justify the move once the new stadium was built and that there was a built-in fanbase screaming for a franchise. Sure enough, the Nationals are far more profitable than the Expos were and there are certainly Washington Nationals fans out there.

That said, the team is struggling to win games, they're having a hard time filling seats in that new stadium and the franchise suffered a 12% decline in value since last year. In other words, once the honeymoon ended, reality set in. In order to have a successful franchise, it needs to field a winning team, pure and simple.

I don't care what sport you want to talk about, winning teams make more money than losing ones and that's the biggest problem in Phoenix right now. Teams lose games, they lose fans, they lose money. It wouldn't be that much different in Southern Ontario, except that the honeymoon period may last longer.

 

[suitman19]

I see the problem with what he is doing. He's not playing by the rules, and I also see Trish's point about how it would open up some scary possibilites.

However, the main reason for this being a great move lies in your own response, Bruce...

"...the masses..."

ctbj is even more blunt than I have been on this issue, but I see his point. The NHL, in reality, needs Canada more than we need it. Pro hockey could exist here in some form if there were only Canadians playing it, running it, and attending it. Would it be a better product than what we have now? Possibly not. But...don't kid yourself into thinking the game would somehow disappear, though. In fact, maybe even more people would be interested in the pro gamer in places like Kamloops, BC...or Hamilton, ON if they had their own teams to cheer for.

We do not fear losing hockey.

We demand AT LEAST equal attention from the NHL for our MASS loyalty and love of the game. Ballsilie is demanding it, too. That's why he is becoming a folk hero in this country right now.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

The words of wisdom I have for you are : AFL & ABA

If you think that an exclusive Canadian NHL Hockey league would be able to rival competition from another professional hockey league starting up and that the players Canadian or Martian would stay there and play you are being a Pollyanna.

However that is straying from the point.
And you fall right into Peter Piper's trap. You are still all caught up in this Nationalistic argument about Canada vs the NHL and how you are being dissed. You are totally blind to the fact - or you choose to ignore it - that allowing one owner to circumvent the franchise regulations spells disaster in the future.

It suits your needs this time...... but what about the next owner or owner-to-be that comes in and wants to do something you hate??? Are you then going to scream from the mountaintop against it??? when you allow someone to break the binding franchise agreements the first time - then you can't stand up the second time and say " No - it'll ruin the game". You have given up that right. I know that a few of you will say - but it is only this time because the team is in bankruptcy - well good luck with that.

I say it again - quit thinking nationalistic and tell me from a business standpoint how allowing an owner to move a team - without regard to the franchising rules - is a good thing for the league's future???

bruce

 

[HelloDestiny]

I say it again - quit thinking nationalistic and tell me from a business standpoint how allowing an owner to move a team - without regard to the franchising rules - is a good thing for the league's future???

bruce

Quite simple actually,

team in Phoenix = Money loss for owners = The NHL Devaluing itself

team in Hamilton = Money gain for owners = the NHL Profiting

Its a GREAT thing for the leagues future

 

[HelloDestiny]

Toronto by itself has the Leafs (certainly amongst, if not the richest NHL franchise

I don't care what sport you want to talk about, winning teams make more money than losing ones and that's the biggest problem in Phoenix right now. Teams lose games, they lose fans, they lose money. It wouldn't be that much different in Southern Ontario, except that the honeymoon period may last longer.

The Leafs havent won anything in over 40 years... the fans havent gone anywhere and you are obviously aware of there HUGE financial stature in the league (#1)

Hockey is a religion here in ontario, and untill everyone who ISNT from here realizes this, none of this passion and dire need to bring a team to hamilton is going to make sense to any of you

 

[brado8236]

Quite simple actually,

team in Phoenix = Money loss for owners = The NHL Devaluing itself

team in Hamilton = Money gain for owners = the NHL Profiting

Its a GREAT thing for the leagues future

You're missing the point Bruce is trying to make. He's not saying a franchise wouldn't work in Hamilton. He's not even saying the Coyotes franchise wouldn't work better in Hamilton than in Phoenix.

What he's saying is that Balsillie is going about things the wrong way. Rules are in place for a reason. To let a new owner wantonly disregard the rules and put a franchise wherever he chooses once he's bought it is absolutely unhealthy for the league. If Balsillie were to gain ownership of the Coyotes (or any other existing franchise), he would have to jump through whatever hoops the NHL deemed necessary in order to move them anywhere. If Balsillie gets away with his plan and moves the Coyotes to Hamilton this year and a Canadian city's economy goes in the toilet, what's to stop any owner from moving said Canadian franchise to Vegas, KC, Houston or whatever new city has a profitable pitch?

The answer? Nothing. If the NHL loses this battle, there will be a dangerous precedent set that will damage the league long-term. Bruce is absolutely correct when he says this, I don't understand why folks can't get it.

 

[brado8236]

The Leafs havent won anything in over 40 years... the fans havent gone anywhere and you are obviously aware of there HUGE financial stature in the league (#1)

Hockey is a religion here in ontario, and untill everyone who ISNT from here realizes this, none of this passion and dire need to bring a team to hamilton is going to make sense to any of you

Don't get me wrong, I understand the passion and that hockey is a religion in Ontario. But unless you're advocating the foundation of the Toronto Hockey League, you need to understand that although Ontario hockey is profitable, the hockey universe doesn't revolve around those 7 million people.

If there is such demand for an NHL franchise in that area, why doesn't an ownership group form that will put together an expansion package, including a new stadium with sold-out luxury boxes and 18-20,000 signed up potential season ticket holders? Money talks and the league couldn't ignore that kind of noise.

The reason expansion hasn't happened there is that nobody's making that kind of noise, there's only a small but vocal group advocating the poaching of another city's franchise. I don't like the idea of people anywhere drooling over a franchise that is underperforming in its current city. What if Ottawa went back in the toilet and Kansas City fans started demanding the Senators be moved? You people would be beside yourselves and crying Shenanigans until Judgment Day...

 

[suitman19]

brado8236 - lord have mercy THANK-YOU!!!!!

It is just amazing to me at my advanced age- that so many people are unable to understand the concept of what is wrong here. And the first answer that pops up is totally ignoring the concept and falling right back into the trap!!!!

 

[sholi2000]

I just think that some of the arguments here are off. There's a huge difference between moving a team from Phoenix, and say the Oilers or Canadiens.

If someone rich enough wanted to buy the Canadiens and then move them to Hamilton, then that's just poor business. Why would you move a money making business just because you can.

Balsillie isn't just walking in a stealing stealing a team (well he is in a way), he's walking in and saving a franchise, and helping save the NHL, and other teams from putting more money into a team that has pretty good chances on losing 30 million or more again.

Lets say 200 people lose there jobs in Phoenix. I have a feeling that a team in Sth On would create maybe double that in jobs.

I like how all of a sudden Buttman has talks under way with other people to keep the team in Glendale.

Why? location, location, location.........aren't those the three most important words in business?

Save our Yotes!! Sure, and how about I take a hundred dollar bill, burn it, and then you kick me in the neverever region and I'll pretend I just made money off the Coyotes.

 

[fly4apuckguy]

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

The words of wisdom I have for you are : AFL & ABA

If you think that an exclusive Canadian NHL Hockey league would be able to rival competition from another professional hockey league starting up and that the players Canadian or Martian would stay there and play you are being a Pollyanna.

However that is straying from the point.
And you fall right into Peter Piper's trap. You are still all caught up in this Nationalistic argument about Canada vs the NHL and how you are being dissed. You are totally blind to the fact - or you choose to ignore it - that allowing one owner to circumvent the franchise regulations spells disaster in the future.

It suits your needs this time...... but what about the next owner or owner-to-be that comes in and wants to do something you hate??? Are you then going to scream from the mountaintop against it??? when you allow someone to break the binding franchise agreements the first time - then you can't stand up the second time and say " No - it'll ruin the game". You have given up that right. I know that a few of you will say - but it is only this time because the team is in bankruptcy - well good luck with that.

I say it again - quit thinking nationalistic and tell me from a business standpoint how allowing an owner to move a team - without regard to the franchising rules - is a good thing for the league's future???

bruce

The bolded sentences...that has happened already. Remember the Winnipeg Jets? The Quebec Nordiques? Where were you when that was going down?

You can call me blinded and accuse me of ignoring whatever you want. I understand what you are saying, and the issues with Ballsilie's methods. I am not simple. I'm an educated man, so don't condescend to me, please. I know exactly what Ballsilie is doing...and I am rooting for him. He is sticking it to the NHL for doing the exact same thing TO two Canadian markets as they are now trying to prevent. He has the money and he has the connections, and poor Bettman is scrambling trying to protect the so-called progress he made by moving hockey into the desert so it could be watched nightly by well over 2000 people (I saw the games...any estimates of 14 000 per game are about 10 000 too high).