Fake Patches and Trimmed High End Cards

[DCUnited96]

I collect vintage tobacco cards, graded and ungraded. Mostly fortunate for me, but this alteration outbreak is very unfortunate for the hobby. The knock-on effect for PSA is probably the worst outcome of these findings, as it's going to be hard to put faith into what they have slabbed. The question mark will always be there.

I've mostly avoided the main consignment companies in the past, as I've found there are calmer, and usually more reasonable means of purchasing cards than their high bid volume auctions. However, many of these cards are bound to recirculated in the hobby, and it's the really the Third Party Grader's name that will get dragged through the mud.

 

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

...Mostly fortunate for me, but this alteration outbreak is very unfortunate for the hobby. The knock-on effect for PSA is probably the worst outcome of these findings, as it's going to be hard to put faith into what they have slabbed. The question mark will always be there...

Unfortunately, I don't think it's so much an outbreak as a longtime problem that's finally now getting brought to light...and only by collectors. TPGs created the conditions for this type of fraud to happen, and then did such a negligent job at their most basic responsibility of telling us what it is we're buying, that finally collectors themselves had to start policing their calls. PSA's and BGS's silence is just so telling. I hope this forces a reckoning in the industry and a better authenticator enters the market to return some sanity to it.

 

[djsatu]

I find it funny PWCC chimed in on that thread. I guess they are trying to save face. But in all honesty it would be very tough for them to verify every card they get for consignment.

Their youtube videos they put out on the Mantle 52 and other cards are pathetic. Brent looks so uncomfortable and busted when talking about those cards. It's a little too late to save face if you ask me. Hopefully the authorities get involved and crack down on these scammers. My big worry is all the nice high graded vintage cards that people have spent thousands on are trimmed. Very sad state. Even Ty Law auto's are trimmed

 

[MMarch]

Their youtube videos they put out on the Mantle 52 and other cards are pathetic. Brent looks so uncomfortable and busted when talking about those cards. It's a little too late to save face if you ask me. Hopefully the authorities get involved and crack down on these scammers. My big worry is all the nice high graded vintage cards that people have spent thousands on are trimmed. Very sad state. Even Ty Law auto's are trimmed

I bought a ton of PSA vintage hockey cards from PWCC auctions a few years ago. Mostly Stan Mikita high grade cards from the early 60’s, and I built the 51/52 Parkie set and at least half of the cards for my set came from PWCC. When we decided to sell our house and relocate, my wife and I talked and decided it was time to retire from the hobby and focus on getting the house we really wanted and our eventual [hopeful] retirement. So, I sent my entire collection to PWCC and let them sell it. With the way things are going now, I am so glad I decided to dump everything when I did. There are times I think back and miss that set and the Stosh’s, but I don’t regret it because who knows if I had a bunch of trimmed/altered cards.

 

[Triple B]

Hoping this site to site quote works...crediting the poster from Blowout with an example of a high end vintage hockey card that was trimmed and sold via PWCC.

1953 Parkhurst #29 Boom Boom Geoffrion PSA 7 to PSA 9
Originally posted by 3124508

Sold on 9/24/2018 as a PSA 7 on eBay to whitman111 (Gary Moser) for $129
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/27/2019 as a PSA 8 for $6,370
Value gain of $6,241!

This 1953 Parkhurst was a huge financial windfall for Moser, all for a trim of the right border. Imagine if you could make over $6,200 for 10 minutes of work. This guy does just that by defrauding honest collectors.

The green rectangles show unique print marks on both front and back. Look how much closer the marks are to borders in the PSA 9 vs. the PSA 7. No doubt this was seriously trimmed.


https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/boom-boom-geoffrion-1953-parkhurst-29-1953352018

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1934584

 

[hockeyguy2006]

Don't forget the one McDavid Cup that got trimmed.

 

[sjw241]

Wasn’t there a Crosby cup rookie that went from bgs 8.5 to Bgs 9.5 somehow

 

[DCUnited96]

At this point, PSA must root out the problem and address specific remedies. The damage to the hobby by having to question every card graded by them is immense.

In the end, it is us holdering the bag.

 

[TADontAsk]

I sent 15 cards earlier this year over to PSA for grading, and one of them came back with the message "does not meet minimum size requirement" or something to that effect. So size is definitely something they look at, but I guess the question is how much margin of error are they giving for size? I can open a fresh box of cards, put them in a stack, and they're not 100% the same size. And if it's a little off, but still meets their minimum requirement, does that affect the grade?

The problem is probably much greater with vintage. Perhaps they should have a standard size on file for each set, and any deviation from that, within a certain margin, would affect the grade of the card. Then at some point when the margin is too great, you just list it as tampered. Therefore, if you trim a fraction of an inch to fix the border, then you're lowering the grade of the card via size as much as you'd be improving it via the border. If some of these "restoration artists" can cut off small fractions of an inch, then grading companies can surely measure that small as well.

 

[Triple B]

Another high end vintage hockey card shown as being trimmed...

1968 O-Pee-Chee Hockey Checklist 133-216 #61

***This card received a "High End" sticker on the 7 but not the 9.

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a PSA-7 (High End) on June 25, 2018 for $325.00. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1678888
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-9 for $1313.88 on October 28, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1819484

Yellow circles are fiber or print mark identifiers.
Red squares identify repairs.
Does not appear to be trimmed but numerous areas of chipping were either repaired or colored. Card received a 2 grade bump.

 

[Craig2]

Now it's a series of McDavid SPA rookies. This whole thing has me considering just cashing out of the hobby...I know there have always been issues, but I feel like nothing can be trusted anymore.

 

[forsberg21]

This is crazy

 

[DCUnited96]

Now it's a series of McDavid SPA rookies. This whole thing has me considering just cashing out of the hobby...I know there have always been issues, but I feel like nothing can be trusted anymore.

Just saw the McDavid run. Ouch. Between these and the other big name modern cards, I think BGS is done.

 

[TADontAsk]

If you read through the Blowout thread (or just a few pages, since it's a massive thread) you would be even more alarmed at the level it's being done in other sports, particularly baseball. Many of them are being traced back to the same eBay user - the one from the Checklist post above.

 

[hockeyguy2006]

The FBI might be interested in this like they were with Mastro.

 

[creasecollector]

Yeah that SPA McDavid run is ridiculous. Wow.

Like, you know big money cards like that are huge targets, but finding the proof of it all is stunning to me, add the fact that these were re-graded under the nose of grading companies to boot.

 

[gobuffalo2331]

honestly, at this point, my best bet and possibly yours as well, is to stay away from all this high end graded stuff. Obviously that's where the fraud will be and it's way too much of a gamble where the prices are over $1,000+++

 

[TADontAsk]

honestly, at this point, my best bet and possibly yours as well, is to stay away from all this high end graded stuff. Obviously that's where the fraud will be and it's way too much of a gamble where the prices are over $1,000+++

If you've ever read PSA's Sports Market Report, the collectors they talk to love mentioning their PSA 9 and 10 landmark cards. They have to at least have heard whispers of this kind of thing. If I owned what some of those collectors owned, I'd be scared to death of the money I invested into them. At the end of the day, just make sure you do your research. I'm sure most cards are fine, but for modern unnumbered cards like the Young Guns, what can you really do?

 

[gobuffalo2331]

If you've ever read PSA's Sports Market Report, the collectors they talk to love mentioning their PSA 9 and 10 landmark cards. They have to at least have heard whispers of this kind of thing. If I owned what some of those collectors owned, I'd be scared to death of the money I invested into them. At the end of the day, just make sure you do your research. I'm sure most cards are fine, but for modern unnumbered cards like the Young Guns, what can you really do?

Very true. Also, collect what you like. If people want to chase these cards, go for it. It's your collection and I'm sure most are fine. It just really makes me shake my head. I'm a board member at Blowout. People have been spending housands and thousands more on graded PSA 9's and 10s vs. raw, stating their main argument was "it's graded so you know it's not trimmed or altered." Now all this comes out and makes people question why they spent so much more on a slabbed PSA 9 vs. the raw. I could just never understand spending so much more on a graded card vs. raw just because it's slabbed mint. There's a few exceptions for very condition sensitive sets but that's about it.

 

[dudical]

Very shocking. ALL of it.

What a **** time for the hobby. Gonna be skeptical now of ALL graded cards worth $1000+ now. If they did 10,20,30 McDavid FWAs. How many Young Guns did they mess with and grade? 1000s? PSA /BGS should release the submissions from these guys and offer to buy these cards back!! Get in front of this and not put their heads in the sand. They also need to say what the hell they are going to do about it going forward. Nobody is going to buy graded cards otherwise if people don't trust them.