guy3050
New Member, Must Send First,
thanks for the history lesson, very interesting
Thanks Guy
Thanks Guy
Hobby Price Guides - Historic Overview
- Thread starter Cartophilium
- Start date
pathshot
Verified Trader,
I've just started reading the thread, but it does bring me back. I really appreciate this contribution, as I know many do.
-m.
-m.
Cartophilium
Banned User
"Card Sharks, Upper Deck" by Pete Williams
Received by email and verified. There are a number of copies available on various site like Amazon, Barnes & Noble. Probably various other used and/or discontinued book sites as well.
"Card Sharks, Upper Deck" by Pete Williams, (1995) MacMillan.
Will post the ISBN # once I get it.
Good luck.
Received by email and verified. There are a number of copies available on various site like Amazon, Barnes & Noble. Probably various other used and/or discontinued book sites as well.
"Card Sharks, Upper Deck" by Pete Williams, (1995) MacMillan.
Will post the ISBN # once I get it.
Good luck.
JTMcCool
Verified Trader,
Very interesting read. I really enjoying learning the history of our hobby. Keep that info coming!
jetsman
Verified Trader
For Bowman, I'm looking at one of my cards and I have the following information
Redemption office:
Bowman Baseball
PO Box 234, New York 23 , NY
Bowman Gum Division, Haelan Laboratories, Inc. Phila., 44, PA
Of note, it was a Bowman employee that would start the Philadelphia Gum Company, who would produce football cards in the 1960s. Later, the company would produce Swell cards, best known for baseball and football retro sets.
Goudey I'm pretty sure was not in Boston but I'm not 100% on that one. I'll have to dig out my card to see the copyright line on it. I'll do so in the next couple days.
Also, here's the ISBN for Card Sharks: ISBN 0-02-629061-8
Redemption office:
Bowman Baseball
PO Box 234, New York 23 , NY
Bowman Gum Division, Haelan Laboratories, Inc. Phila., 44, PA
Of note, it was a Bowman employee that would start the Philadelphia Gum Company, who would produce football cards in the 1960s. Later, the company would produce Swell cards, best known for baseball and football retro sets.
Goudey I'm pretty sure was not in Boston but I'm not 100% on that one. I'll have to dig out my card to see the copyright line on it. I'll do so in the next couple days.
Also, here's the ISBN for Card Sharks: ISBN 0-02-629061-8
Cartophilium
Banned User
Price Guides, Errors and Shoddy Product
Jetsman raised a very interesting issue when posting about the 1990-91 Pro Set Hockey Card issue. Errors and shoddy product. Penguinpr added the comment about them jumping the gun and flooding the market.
In retrospect this seems to have been a function of an underfinanced company trying to make a quick hit by grabbing the initial dollars. Having produced hockey sets I can appreciate the need for writers who can write proper hockey terminology and error free copy, typist who can spell, people who can translate, printers who can match images to text, etc. The old adage that you get what you pay for is certainly true. As is the fact that no one is perfect.
In a roundabout way this brings us to price guides and errors or shoddy product. Errors and variations have existed since the origins of printing. They found their way into the card hobby/industry long before price guides. Evidenced by the 1974-75 O-Pee-Chee Jacques Lemaire with Buffalo, the 1957 Topps BB Hank Aaron batting left handed / reverse negative to name just a few.
Errors / shoddy product combined with price guides and the hobby press is a volatile situation. Starting with the many errors and variations with the 1981 Fleer BB the publishers of hobby publicaions and price guides were faced with a dilemma. Balancing the reporting of errors and variations without dictating to the marketplace. On the other hand the producers of cards especially those of issues where errors and variations were discovered received an eonomic benefit since sales spiked. Effectively incompetence produced short term benefits. They were not very forthcoming with information since they did not want to kill the momentum for their product.
From the standpoint of a price guide publisher this involved threading a fine line. We were spared he hard decisions that the baseball card publishers had to deal with since the hockey card issues in Canada were very limited in the 1980's compared to baseball in the USA. However every slight colour shade was reported to us, every perceived grammatical error was magnified, degrees of fuzziness were compared and so forth. Was very relieved when I did not have to go thru the error frenzy of 1990 -91.
Jetsman raised a very interesting issue when posting about the 1990-91 Pro Set Hockey Card issue. Errors and shoddy product. Penguinpr added the comment about them jumping the gun and flooding the market.
In retrospect this seems to have been a function of an underfinanced company trying to make a quick hit by grabbing the initial dollars. Having produced hockey sets I can appreciate the need for writers who can write proper hockey terminology and error free copy, typist who can spell, people who can translate, printers who can match images to text, etc. The old adage that you get what you pay for is certainly true. As is the fact that no one is perfect.
In a roundabout way this brings us to price guides and errors or shoddy product. Errors and variations have existed since the origins of printing. They found their way into the card hobby/industry long before price guides. Evidenced by the 1974-75 O-Pee-Chee Jacques Lemaire with Buffalo, the 1957 Topps BB Hank Aaron batting left handed / reverse negative to name just a few.
Errors / shoddy product combined with price guides and the hobby press is a volatile situation. Starting with the many errors and variations with the 1981 Fleer BB the publishers of hobby publicaions and price guides were faced with a dilemma. Balancing the reporting of errors and variations without dictating to the marketplace. On the other hand the producers of cards especially those of issues where errors and variations were discovered received an eonomic benefit since sales spiked. Effectively incompetence produced short term benefits. They were not very forthcoming with information since they did not want to kill the momentum for their product.
From the standpoint of a price guide publisher this involved threading a fine line. We were spared he hard decisions that the baseball card publishers had to deal with since the hockey card issues in Canada were very limited in the 1980's compared to baseball in the USA. However every slight colour shade was reported to us, every perceived grammatical error was magnified, degrees of fuzziness were compared and so forth. Was very relieved when I did not have to go thru the error frenzy of 1990 -91.
sprague11
Upstanding Member
Pro set was amazing in 1990/91 with the Sheer volume of error cards along with the sheer volume of product. Some of the corrected cards wound up having new errors on them. You can still by cases of the stuff for 5 bucks today and get kicked in the junk.
91/92 was an interesting year as well. You're lucky enough to get Patrick Roy to sign cards for you (The first autographed chase card BTW - Bobby Orr in Score was released a couple weeks later and Brett Hull in UD1 came out a month later), and you don't promote the Roy chase card on your packaging? Great marketing there!
91/92 was an interesting year as well. You're lucky enough to get Patrick Roy to sign cards for you (The first autographed chase card BTW - Bobby Orr in Score was released a couple weeks later and Brett Hull in UD1 came out a month later), and you don't promote the Roy chase card on your packaging? Great marketing there!
FrozenInferno
Resident Bluenoser, Verified Trader,
Who else can smell a major column starting up in the next Insider? 
capsfan30
Verified Trader,
It was ProSet that season. They had the Roy autos, I think numbered /500 or something. But, that's how it went 17 years ago. Autos weren't on the forethought of collecting as it was the first of its kind.
Cartophilium
Banned User
Promoting the Product
A few comments about promotions and packaging. Using Pro Set Patrick Roy autographed card as an example. Luck had nothing to do with the promo. Simply agree to the asking price for the autographs, pay, produce the cards, get them signed, inserted in random packs, boxed and shipped and you are done.
Promoting the autographed chase card is usually another matter. If the company does not agree to pay extra for box promotions or POP(point of purchase) materials then they cannot promote in the autographed card as suggested. In retrospect Pro Set, I have the sense that Pro Set was under financed, so details and extras would have been the first to suffer.
A few comments about promotions and packaging. Using Pro Set Patrick Roy autographed card as an example. Luck had nothing to do with the promo. Simply agree to the asking price for the autographs, pay, produce the cards, get them signed, inserted in random packs, boxed and shipped and you are done.
Promoting the autographed chase card is usually another matter. If the company does not agree to pay extra for box promotions or POP(point of purchase) materials then they cannot promote in the autographed card as suggested. In retrospect Pro Set, I have the sense that Pro Set was under financed, so details and extras would have been the first to suffer.
sprague11
Upstanding Member
Maybe luck was the wrong word - how about we settle on "good fortune"? 
Still, Pro Set has the best goalie on the planet signing cards for them and does not promote it one bit. One of the many reasons Lud Dunny didn;t last in the card business. If Roy's signing cards for you back in 1991, you darned well better promote it to get collectors to buy your product, especially after being ridiculed for the volume of error cards the previous year.
I don't think Proset was terribly underfinanced at that point as they still churned out a Parkhurst set and Pro Set Platinum later in the season. The Parkhurst set from that year was actually my favorite set of the year.
Upper Deck has the hottest goal scorer in Brett Hull signing for them and Hull is everywhere on the packaging. Ditto Bobby Orr with Score. That's good marketing. Not advertising that Patrick Roy is signing cards for you? That's BAD marketing.
Still, Pro Set has the best goalie on the planet signing cards for them and does not promote it one bit. One of the many reasons Lud Dunny didn;t last in the card business. If Roy's signing cards for you back in 1991, you darned well better promote it to get collectors to buy your product, especially after being ridiculed for the volume of error cards the previous year.
I don't think Proset was terribly underfinanced at that point as they still churned out a Parkhurst set and Pro Set Platinum later in the season. The Parkhurst set from that year was actually my favorite set of the year.
Upper Deck has the hottest goal scorer in Brett Hull signing for them and Hull is everywhere on the packaging. Ditto Bobby Orr with Score. That's good marketing. Not advertising that Patrick Roy is signing cards for you? That's BAD marketing.
The Roy autos were Canadian Hobby only - they were promoted in the CSC and Cdn hockey publications - Inside Hockey and The Hockey News immediately come to mind. 1000 were inserted in boxes with a gold "The Collector" sticker on them for Series 1. They weren't certified though - they were just autos signed in silver paint pen. There were another 1,000 inserted in Series 2 French packs, which were not promoted that I could think of.
Pro Set was well capitalized, but the execution was horrible by them. I still have a set of 90-91 that has probably all but 2 of the variations. I still a bit of a soft spot for those sets - as I had bought the football sets starting back in '89. Not to mention the killing I made on the Brett Hull promos as well as having a Gretzky card from the 90-91 set 3 months before it came out. At the time I had sent a letter to Pro Set asking for some samples of the hockey set, and they obliged in spades...
Cartophilium
Banned User
Royalties
During the bankruptcy it was revealed that royalties due from Pro Set to the NFL and NHL were significantly delinquent. Also this was an era when MLB would license virtually anyone who would meet the initial guarantee. Pro Set never had an MLB license nor did they have an NBA license. The NBA at that time was extremely selective and still is. At that time MLB was the cash cow.
NBA had the key property - Michael Jordan. The other companies at least had the MLB license.
Evidence points to being cash short going in.
The Roy autos were Canadian Hobby only - they were promoted in the CSC and Cdn hockey publications - Inside Hockey and The Hockey News immediately come to mind. 1000 were inserted in boxes with a gold "The Collector" sticker on them for Series 1. They weren't certified though - they were just autos signed in silver paint pen. There were another 1,000 inserted in Series 2 French packs, which were not promoted that I could think of.
Pro Set was well capitalized, but the execution was horrible by them. I still have a set of 90-91 that has probably all but 2 of the variations. I still a bit of a soft spot for those sets - as I had bought the football sets starting back in '89. Not to mention the killing I made on the Brett Hull promos as well as having a Gretzky card from the 90-91 set 3 months before it came out. At the time I had sent a letter to Pro Set asking for some samples of the hockey set, and they obliged in spades...
During the bankruptcy it was revealed that royalties due from Pro Set to the NFL and NHL were significantly delinquent. Also this was an era when MLB would license virtually anyone who would meet the initial guarantee. Pro Set never had an MLB license nor did they have an NBA license. The NBA at that time was extremely selective and still is. At that time MLB was the cash cow.
NBA had the key property - Michael Jordan. The other companies at least had the MLB license.
Evidence points to being cash short going in.
penguinpr
Verified Trader
Is the Pro Set bankruptcy information available online? Might make for some interesting reading.
sprague11
Upstanding Member
Email Lud Denny - I'm sure he'll be happy to answer any questions. Or maybe not 
Cartophilium
Banned User
Partially
The following links should get you started:
http://www.romingerlegal.com/fifthcircuit/opinions/97-20812.CV0.wpd.html
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=5th&navby=case&no=9720812cv0
The fillings and pleads going back to 1992 may not be available online since this was before the internet boom.
Googleing "Lud Denny" generates information that would have to be filtered.
Most of the law search sites are pay sites. The various law firms and trustees involved would have extensive files but getting access may be problematic due to possible court orders that may have sealed certain documents and the fact that law firms and others are extremely mercenary.
The University of Connecticut has a sports licensing group as part of one of their faculties. David Beckerman, former CEO of Starter was involved. They may have something on file as they do/did case studies.
Good luck.
The following links should get you started:
http://www.romingerlegal.com/fifthcircuit/opinions/97-20812.CV0.wpd.html
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=5th&navby=case&no=9720812cv0
The fillings and pleads going back to 1992 may not be available online since this was before the internet boom.
Googleing "Lud Denny" generates information that would have to be filtered.
Most of the law search sites are pay sites. The various law firms and trustees involved would have extensive files but getting access may be problematic due to possible court orders that may have sealed certain documents and the fact that law firms and others are extremely mercenary.
The University of Connecticut has a sports licensing group as part of one of their faculties. David Beckerman, former CEO of Starter was involved. They may have something on file as they do/did case studies.
Good luck.
sprague11
Upstanding Member
I can think of a few pluses:
The two holograms were pretty good chase cards for the time. Ditto the CC's and so forth (The Mask card is still a favorite)
I was never a fan of the 90/91 design, but I thought that 91/92 and 92/93 didn;t look to bad from a design standpoint. Ditto the Parkhurst cards.
The Hall of Fame cards in 1991/92 were a nice touch: Tragically Hip fans were pying good money for the Barilko goal card at one time.
The Parkie Santa card teaches a valuable lesson to this day.
I never found about the Roy card until they had an article about in Beckett a couple months after the release. Sadly my corner store in Nipigon lacked in magazine selection so I initially had no idea there was a Roy anywhere to be found in that stuff. With Score and Upper Deck the packaging blatantly stated there was a possibility to pull a Hull or Orr autograph.
Now don;t get me started on Arena Holograms sets!
Hows about I start a Pro-Set thread? Might be good for some giggles.
Last edited:
jetsman
Verified Trader
Pro Set, for all its errors...I mean mistakes... was an incredible ambassador and innovator for cards. They did the Player of the Month cards and promo sheets of Parkhurst which got average fans in arenas more interested in the hobby, they recognized hockey's history with the HHOF subset and the inductions, they made limited oddballs like the Awards Banquet sets and got into confectionary market with Pro Set Puck. Plus, they issued promos, were the first company to do parallels (along with the first to do autographs) and did external marketing like their appearance in NHLPA '93 (Super Nintendo game).
Cartophilium
Banned User
Few Points.......
Pro Set marketing to the non traditional hockey card markets was an innovative move made somewhat out of necessity since the serious card market moved away from their product after the debacle of 1990-91.
Starting in 1984 Topps produced a Tiffany or Glossy version of their regular BB set. Granted it was a limited boxed set but it was effectively a parallel. The method of delivery to the end user was different.Boxed set as opposed to pack inserts that had to be collected. Selling for app. eight times the regular issue but produced on white cardboard with a glossy finish.
Parkhurst was emerald stamped on the same type of cardboard which reduces expenses.
My company recognized the history of hockey with three issues of the Hockey Hall of Fame Collection during the eighties AND we actual did all the members at the given time as opposed to a hand full like Pro Set did. Prior to the Cartophilium issues the 1960-61 Topps and 1955-56 Parkhurst recognized hockey history to a greater extent.
Pro Set marketing to the non traditional hockey card markets was an innovative move made somewhat out of necessity since the serious card market moved away from their product after the debacle of 1990-91.
Starting in 1984 Topps produced a Tiffany or Glossy version of their regular BB set. Granted it was a limited boxed set but it was effectively a parallel. The method of delivery to the end user was different.Boxed set as opposed to pack inserts that had to be collected. Selling for app. eight times the regular issue but produced on white cardboard with a glossy finish.
Parkhurst was emerald stamped on the same type of cardboard which reduces expenses.
My company recognized the history of hockey with three issues of the Hockey Hall of Fame Collection during the eighties AND we actual did all the members at the given time as opposed to a hand full like Pro Set did. Prior to the Cartophilium issues the 1960-61 Topps and 1955-56 Parkhurst recognized hockey history to a greater extent.
