How to stop fake patches

vegaspuck said:
I kind of like the dye idea....but then again, we're talking about more wasted resources on something that doesn't really affect their income.
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It might not be a direct effect, but if the secondary market takes a hit, then Upper Deck's sales will take a hit. How many tins of Cup are going to sell at $400 if the really big pulls don't sell because buyers are convinced that, if it's nice, it's fake?

UD has a stake in this and they need to realize it quick.
 
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quincy said:
That's a turnoff, the same way that slabbed cards are a turnoff for some in ITG Ultimate. For some - myself included - being able to touch the swatch is important. The tactile experience gives you one more connection to the player who wore it.


Jamie Hunts....nearly forgot that one. ;)
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Would that even work on Cup cards? Isn't the new trend to take the top half of the card off and replace the patch and then glue it back down. If that is the case then the glass covering the patch wouldn't do much.
 
Maple Leaf Sports said:
Errr... i'm not trying to stir the pot, but isn't Your Card Of The Week made by Upper Deck?
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Just because I don't buy: packs/boxes/tins/redemptions anymore, being a player collector, I buy the cards I need. I can't believe how cheap you're able to pick up those Cup cards for!!!!
 
Ferris said:
It might not be a direct effect, but if the secondary market takes a hit, then Upper Deck's sales will take a hit. How many tins of Cup are going to sell at $400 if the really big pulls don't sell because buyers are convinced that, if it's nice, it's fake?
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Answer: none of them. Because the stuff is still in the tins. I don't believe for 1/1000th of a second that a few scumbag losers manipulating patches will have any effect on UD's sales out the door.

In UD's defense, what collectors do to their cards after they are freed from packs is not their problem to solve. If they're interested in working with collectors on it, and collectors are willing to have meaningful, constructive conversations that don't turn into ranting sessions about the matter, then that's another discussion altogether.

We can't throw everything at UD's feet and say fix it. The hobbyists need to work with the manufacturers on this one...
 
Upper Deck needs to hook up with 3M or someone who can make an adhesive that makes the card impossible to tamper with. I've tried it on my own with common jersey cards, but if you take an Upper Deck jersey card and tug the swatch out of the card, it comes off relatively easily. If you try the same with an ITG card, whatever adhesive they have used makes it EXTREMELY difficult to remove the patch. Licenses aside, how many UD patches are faked vs ITG? I think there's a reason...

With this in place, if I'm manufacturing the card, glue on the back AND on the part of the card that overlaps the patch and you're in business. Want to remove the patch? Good, then you destroy the card at the same time. That $10,000 Crosby Cup RC becomes nothing than a quiver in your boxers.

If the companies are not willing to create a database for the MULTITUDE of patch cards they make, then improve the quality (and integrity) of the product.
 
Khabby said:
Good glue doesn't come cheap.......
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Sigh. There's no satisfying some people.

If you want the integrity, be prepared to pay for it.
If you're willing to take your chances... then change nothing.

We're talking about patch cards, a very small percentage of the TOTAL run of cards in a given year...

... and it's not THAT expensive...
 
vegaspuck said:
Why would you fake an ITG patch? Most of the fakes come off NHL Rookie cards. Don't see many ITG NHL RC's lately.
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If I were inclined to fake patches, I'd work exclusively with ITG cards. No serial numbering = no chance of getting caught if you are smart by using the right patches. There could be thousands of fake ITG patches out there - but there is exactly zero chance of picking them out. The difference between a one colour H&P emblem, and a three colour one from a fancy shoulder patch? Lower profit margins, but higher volume.
 
leafschik1967 said:
If I were inclined to fake patches, I'd work exclusively with ITG cards. No serial numbering = no chance of getting caught if you are smart by using the right patches. There could be thousands of fake ITG patches out there - but there is exactly zero chance of picking them out. The difference between a one colour H&P emblem, and a three colour one from a fancy shoulder patch? Lower profit margins, but higher volume.
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But over a long term, you're bound to mess up some.
Why mess with 100 cards where you turn $60 profit on each, when you can change 1 card and make $6K? These guys aren't about volume - quick, large profits are the name of their game.
 
cards-gotta-go said:
But over a long term, you're bound to mess up some.
Why mess with 100 cards where you turn $60 profit on each, when you can change 1 card and make $6K? These guys aren't about volume - quick, large profits are the name of their game.
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The guys with The Cup cards are. But no one knows if someone is out there doing the same thing turning $60 profits on a large number of ITG cards. The lack of serial numbering makes it impossible to tell.
 
leafschik1967 said:
The guys with The Cup cards are. But no one knows if someone is out there doing the same thing turning $60 profits on a large number of ITG cards. The lack of serial numbering makes it impossible to tell.
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Trish, I honestly think it's about 10,000 times less likely.
What you're saying is absolutely true, but the lazy nature of these types of hobby sleaze leads me to believe they're after the big quick score and nothing else.
 
cards-gotta-go said:
Trish, I honestly think it's about 10,000 times less likely.
What you're saying is absolutely true, but the lazy nature of these types of hobby sleaze leads me to believe they're after the big quick score and nothing else.
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Baseball fake patches are almost exclusively on the 'take a $25 card and turn it into a $200 card', because rookie cards are very different in baseball. I'd be surprised if the same element wasn't taking a chance in other sports. There have to be scum bags on a more limited budget out there. Not everyone can afford the buy in to fake a Crosby Cup RC.
 
vegaspuck said:
Why would you fake an ITG patch? Most of the fakes come off NHL Rookie cards. Don't see many ITG NHL RC's lately.

Haven't seen a real effort to fake the one color Number patches from ITG either. Even the best emblems in Heroes and Prospects don't pull in a ton of money. Whereas the Cup unique patches can quadruple the resale value of the card. So of course there's more effort to fake UD patch cards in the after market.
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You seem to think that this problem is exclusive to hockey and exclusive to rookie cards. They're not. Baseball (especially) is inundated with fake patches on ALL levels. If you're a patch faker, why scam only on the rookies?

You haven't seen an effort to fake ITG patches because it is hard to do. This is about money, not artistic merit. If these guys can pick up a patch card for $20 and flip it for $40, that's a fantastic part time job.

Whatever, we're getting away from the point, that being about the ease to remove these patches from Upper Deck's products. Forget ITG in this conversation, the fact remains, it's easy as pie to remove those patches from a high end product like the Cup. Investing in your product and making it difficult would deter people from doing it and would save UD from having to go through the effort of creating a database.

If UD isn't willing to look at a solution, then they care less than I originally thought.
 
Triple B said:
If UD isn't willing to look at a solution, then they care less than I originally thought.
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Why SHOULD UD care? They do everything in their power to ensure that the product THEY sell is complete, authentic and correct. That's where their legal responsibility ends...

... if the hobbyists want improvements, then the card manufacturers have to be informed and educated, and offered different ideas to test in terms of cost, manufacturability, etc...

Throwing it over the fence into UD and ITG's yards and saying "Fix it" is not going to solve it...
 
vegaspuck said:
Show UD how improving patch security will improve their bottom dollar, and they'll probably look to do it. They're a business first type of company. Show them it's cost effective. Show the profit margin on using fancier materials, printing processes, or image libraries. Do that, and they'll probably have it done tomorrow. Show them a process that doesn't add to the production cost of the Cup so they can keep tins at $350 SRP. Then you might have your solution.
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I'd be happy to help (I think I can add some value) - who do I talk to?
 
Triple B nailed it, for those that think these guys are separating the cardboard and inserting the swatch, you're wrong in most cases. 99% of the swatches can simply be pulled out of the window, hell I've pulled cards from boxes where the swatches actually move around in the window unsecured to the card at all. Simplest most cost effective is either to go the Ice Sig swatch route, use designs that make it impossible to pull the swatch out without damaging them a la 02-03 Honor Roll Grade A jerseys, or find a better way to secure the swatch rather than double sided tape (that is all that is currently used).

For reference on the honor roll jerseys http://cgi.ebay.com/02-03-UD-HONOR-ROLL-GRADE-A-JERSEYS-CHRIS-DRURY-225_W0QQitemZ160270626648


Of course desgins like these open themselves up to another problem - UD's lack of Qualtiy assurance.
Darren
 
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