I pointed out soem reasons I believe set thopse players apart. The problem is, Mats never set himself apart from the rest of the league. there was always someone better at his position for that year.
Bill
Bill
THN Top 10 reasons Sundin is not a Hall of Famer
- Thread starter gamebreakers
- Start date
leafs4_cup
Verified Member
So because he was never better than Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, or Joe Sakic that takes away from how good he is?
timber09
www.lumberjackcards.com,
I agree with you Trish - there are too many players in the HAF - and its not just hockey its all sports. I think that a player should have to pass the smell test and I would say that Sundin does not.
However, the Hall of Fame being what it is, he will get in and with the guidelines that are in place I would say that he definitely deserves to be there. Right now he is in the top 30 in all time points and has done it in an era where goals have been way down and has done it on a perennial basement dweller of a team.
Anyone that is a leader, which he certainly is, has some playoff or international success, which he does, and scores over a point a game in a long career, 1300 games would qualify in my mind, deserves to get into the Hall - at least in the Hall they way it is currently designed.
However, the Hall of Fame being what it is, he will get in and with the guidelines that are in place I would say that he definitely deserves to be there. Right now he is in the top 30 in all time points and has done it in an era where goals have been way down and has done it on a perennial basement dweller of a team.
Anyone that is a leader, which he certainly is, has some playoff or international success, which he does, and scores over a point a game in a long career, 1300 games would qualify in my mind, deserves to get into the Hall - at least in the Hall they way it is currently designed.
leafs4_cup
Verified Member
That's not really a fair statement to make. The Leafs were actually a pretty consistently good team (just not "great") for 6 seasons between 98-99 and 03-04 with two final four appearances. Prior to the lockout the Leafs made the playoffs in 8 of the 10 seasons Mats was a Leaf.
timber09
www.lumberjackcards.com,
OK - a decent but not great team - I guess the point that I am trying to make there is that he did a lot without a lot of talent around him - didn't mean to ruffle the feathers of any Leafs fans out there.
leafs4_cup
Verified Member
The team is so bad now, us Leaf fans have to cling to whatever success we've had, even if it isn't recent or all that impressive in the first place.
sholi2000
Verified Trader
Me thinks I will have to see the european all time points leader list. He must be up in the top 10, just curious, and I'm no cat. 
Or Adam oates, Mark Messier, Sergei Federov, Eric lindros, Alexei Zhamnov, Peter Forsberg, Alexi Yashin, Or Stevie Y??? Answer is No, he did not set himself apart from those players, except for two times. He was a second team all star twice. Now some of these guys are not Hall Of Famers, but if eric Lindros does nto get in, then Mats Sundin should not. Lindros won an MVP award, lead his team to the cup finals, made great players around him, includiogn a 50 goal scorer out of John Leclair, and was a first team all star. not to mention during the oeak of his career, he was arguably the most dominant player in the middle of the ice.
I do not think Eric Lindros is a HOF'er, but neither is Mats Sundin.
leafs4_cup
Verified Member
Eric Lindros also refused to report to the team that drafted him, had off-ice issues, had an alleged affair with a teammate's wife, demanded that his GM trade him to one specific team, sat out a whole year voluntarily, sat out a few more involuntarily. If you think other issues don't factor into being a HOFer, go ask Theo Fleury what his chances are.
Forsberg, special player with serious injury issues. Has a much better resume than Lindros though, he will likely be in the Hall.
Stevie Y and Mark Messier are legendary players and don't really belong in this conversation.
Alexei Zhamnov and Alexei Yashin? Please tell me you are kidding me. They don't belong in this conversation either.
Oates may have made people around him better, but he was never even close to being the best C in the game.
Fedorov is a great person to compare Mats with because their careers have spanned the exact same time period. Fedorov had better players to play with and is still almost 200 points behind Mats. With that said, I do believe he is a HOFer as well.
Either way you slice it, by numbers, by comparison to these players, by intangibles, Mats is a Hall of Famer.
All of your points are correct, but my point was that only two times Mats Sundin coudl seperate himself from these players. To be voted as having been a betetr player then all of these guys two itimes is nto good. It wasnt just Mario, Wayne and Joe that beat Sundin to the All Star teams every year,. it is my opinion that he was not dominant enough. its just opinion though, and theres onyl one opinion that matters, lol. Well find out in a few years.
Bill
will-411
Verified Trader,
This is no contest - Sundin is arguably the best Swedish player in the history of the NHL, and has the numbers and longevity to be a shoo-in to the Hall. The HHOF has made it clear that truly exceptional and set apart from your peers has no bearing on inclusion to the Hall.
There is no legitimate reason for Ciccarelli to not be in the Hall other than he didn't pander to ANY writer during his playing days and had questionable off ice activities.
Sundin gets in within his first three years of eligibility, thanks to his media relationships and his position within the city of Toronto.
Cory
There is no legitimate reason for Ciccarelli to not be in the Hall other than he didn't pander to ANY writer during his playing days and had questionable off ice activities.
Sundin gets in within his first three years of eligibility, thanks to his media relationships and his position within the city of Toronto.
Cory
cards-gotta-go
Banned User
World Championships? Who cares about those? Those things are for professionals whose teams don't make the playoffs or get bounced quickly in the first round... they're nowhere close to the World Cup or the Olympics in terms of their importance... they're merely a footnote to a resume, not a reason for inclusion.
Is Sundin a lock for the HOF? No - there are only a few locks - "Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Messier, etc". Is he the best Swedish player ever? I say no. He's not the first player that comes to mind... He will probably get in though.
Is Sundin a lock for the HOF? No - there are only a few locks - "Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Messier, etc". Is he the best Swedish player ever? I say no. He's not the first player that comes to mind... He will probably get in though.
O
orr4ever
Guest
he wont make the first ballot , probably not the second but he'll get in on an off year
kennycolwell
Verified Trader
Me thinks I will have to see the european all time points leader list. He must be up in the top 10, just curious, and I'm no cat.
Here is what I came up with Shane.
1. Jagr (9th)- 1599 pts
2. Mikita (13th) - 1467pts
3. Kurri (18th) - 1398pts
4. Sundin (30th) - 1321pts
5. Stastny (35th) - 1239pts
6. Selanne (46th) - 1158pts
7. Fedorov (48th) - 1146pts
8. Mogilny (63rd) - 1032pts
9. Lidstrom (82nd) - 938pts
10. Bondra (92nd) - 892pts
L
LEAFSSSSS
Guest
no he isnt a hall of famer, migt have his num retired by theleafs but thats it...unless he gets like 100 goals this season
leafs4_cup
Verified Member
Care to support that statement with a reason?
DredJAw
Upstanding Member,
Leafs don't retire numbers.
As a 'leaf fan' you should know that. Seeing as you don't, I'll have to take your opinion of Sundin witha grain of salt.
sprague11
Upstanding Member
If Stastny's in, then Sundin gets in.
sholi2000
Verified Trader
Maybe so, but would his bio read anything like this?
"After Wayne Gretzky, Peter Stastny was the most prolific scorer in the NHL in the 1980s, and the terrific backup he had in Quebec included his brothers Anton and Marian. In fact, Peter Stastny often went out on the ice as forward on two different attack lines."
Peter Stastny -Hockey Hall of Fame
I would like to think that Peter is a tad (and by tad, I mean well above) above Sundin, on all time best European list.
Sundin may get in, but there will be a boat load of others to get in before him after he retires.
will-411
Verified Trader,
Of course any bio on the Hockey Hall of Fame site is going to read favourably - what are they going to put, that he had a few great years in a watered down down, goal crazy NHL?
I do agree Sundin won't get in his first chance... but he will get in... especially if there's more classes like this years... I've got the ticket order form sitting on my desk here... not sure I want to pay $500 to see Glenn Anderson, Ed Chynoweth, Igor Larionov and Scampy go in the Hall...
Cory
